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sandeeprajsinghtandon

First Appeal : What exactly happens

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

Hi This is sandeep,

I have raised my First Appeal against a very vague answer given by PIO to Income Tax Dept Mumbai for my Refund of 2006-2007 year.

My question is 3 fold

1) What exactly happens during the First Appeal . Would i have to deal with bad behaviours of PIO and the Appellate authority

2) How am i supposed to behave. Can i say that "why did the PIO not give proper answer"."why didnt he give me info on the first appellate authority inspite of it being a query".."he has violated this section that section..i insist on a fine on him"..

3) Can in future that PIO or his team take vengence on my future income tax returns in any way. i hope u are getting my point

Please answer it here or call me on XXXXXXXto help me.

Excepting and awating help..

 

thanks

sandeep

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taurus

There is nothing to worry about the proceedings in the first appeal. I hope, in your written appeal you have clearly stated what is the deficiency in the info provided and what you expect. Many times the FAA decides the case on the written submissions made by you as well as the PIO. He evaluates impartially whether the required info has been provided or not. If he is prima facie satisfied that the PIO did not provide the info he may direct the PIO to provide it within a stipulated time or the FAA himself may provide it if it is available on record. Only when the points raised by you are not clear or when you specifically ask for a personal hearing, the FAA calls you. Even then, he cannot behave with you rudely. They are all aware of their duties and obligations. In such a personal hearing you can put forth your points fearlessly and without hurting either the FAA or the PIO. You can say what info the PIO has not supplied instead of asking 'why he did not give that'. You can mention which sections of the Act are violated. The FAA has no powers to impose fine on the PIO. There is no use asking for that and offending them. As long as you abide by the rules, no one take vengeance on you in future. Be bold. Be truthful. Dont be offencive. You will win your case.

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karira

Sandeep,

 

If you need further help, please share with the members:

 

- Your RTI application

- The PIO's reply

- Your First Appeal

 

This will help members to give you suitable suggestions, if any.

 

You can mask out the personal information or names , if you want and then upload them here.

 

The following thread will be useful to you:

 

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/1046-i-have-been-called-hearing-what-do.html

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jps50

Pl donot worry about vengenance against U for resorting to RTI. No income tax official can choose your file at his level for scrutiny etc. Returns are chosen based on certain parameters fixed by CBDT and entire process is computer generated. In one case return of an Incometax Commissioner was selected for scrutiny by ITO!

 

If U have properly prepared first appeal, U need not attend hearing. FAA will take decision based on material available including your appeal. It is not binding on you to attend hearing. Mostly FAA concurs with PIO and nothing material comes out of it in favour of applicant. If PIO and FAA are in the same station, PIO would have unofficially consulted FAA before replying U.

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

Thanks to all so far those are answered. It has given me some hope..I am not ALONE!!!!

OK Giving you a small back ground

1) I was told by one of the earlier RTI's reply that my Refund of the Income Tax for yester years is stuck due to PAN Migration that has not happened from Pune to Mumbai

2) This was in the month of August 08. They then made a request to Pune Office for migration of the PAN. They then sat on the same uptil Oct 2008 and after my continous follow up with PUNE Income Tax office they migrated the PAN in the month of Oct 2008(Confirmed with one of the Officers of the Pune ITO over the phone.).

3) Since then i was following up with Mumbai Income tax Office and they went upto the point to tell me that "They dont know where my PAN Is". I then got a phone call from Income tax officer from Mumbai Office and he said that the PAN is still with Pune OFFICE.

4) Finally i resorted to another RTI series.I applied to

a. Mumbai Office with 13 questions.: The reply from them came back in 6 days of my query and they said, that "There is some centralization job going on hence they cannot say anything on anymatter of my RTI". I partly knew this, but the servers were going to be up and running in next 5 days, but they hurried to reply inorder to simply DISPOSE Off the queries. I asked them a series of questions ranging from when did my PAN come from Pune to Mumbai. Names of the officers etc. Also General questions like, what are the steps involved in the PAN Migration from PUNE To mUmbai. Steps for refund after PAN Migration is done.Name of the first appellate authority. All i got was a 2 line reply stated above.

b. Pune Office with 7 Questions: The reply from them came back in 20 days and they confirmed with some lies here and there that "The PAN has been migrated to Mumbai Office and its under their jurisdiction"

c. With this i filed an appeal with Mumbai Office and pointed out that, they have violated sections under which they have not replied to a lot of questions and have not informed me of the First Appellate Authority inspite of that being asked as one of the questions.

 

Now, i know who the FAA and the PIO is. They both do belong to the same office and are sure to have discussed with each other informally before replying. both are ladies belonging to same office. I dont think they would try and make Penalties. Is there any way i can force them for Penalties.

I have now attached the reply from the PUNE Office as a "Latest Information" to the first appeal and asked them for answers again.

 

I am not able to attach the files. but here is my first appeal that i have already made. please comment do i have a strong case.

To: Date: Jan 26th 2009.

First Appellate Authority,

CIT 29,

DT01

Income Tax Dept,

Bandra Kurla Complex,

Mumbai -51

 

 

Subject: First Appeal under Section 19(1) of the Right to Information Act (RTI ) 2005 against PIO’s response dated 8/1/2009.

 

Sir/Madam,

 

Under the RTI act, I had sought the information regarding my PAN no. ADWPT4467D migration and my Refunds for the assessment year 2007-2008 and 2008-2009(Please refer to the attachment of my RTI Query). I would like to direct your attention to PIO’s response no. PRO-II/DT-01/Grievance/2008-09 dated 8/1/2009(Please refer to the attachment of PIO’s response) which is very incomplete in nature.

Here by I appeal for a personal hearing and the following be taken under the appeal.

 

1. I plead that directions to be issued to the PIO to provide me with the “latest information” in the Question and Answer format (as 1 answer per question thus I would in all need 13 individual answers for 13 individual questions asked).

2. As additional information, please find the reply of my RTI query to Pune Income tax department attached with this appeal. Refer to answers to Questions no. 2 and Questions no. 5 that suggest that PAN is lying under the jurisdiction of Mumbai IT department.

3. I would like to indicate that I was given a very generalist two line answer for my 13 questions that is grossly incomplete and the PIO has not informed me of the first appellate authority. Under Section 7 (8) (iii), it is his responsibility to forward it to the First Appellate Authority incase the PIO is not able to answer the queries. In spite of asking the details of First Appellate Authority as a part of the RTI query, the same was not answered. Please provide a justification for the same.

4. Please communicate the penalties that you would be exerting on the Officer under Section 20(1) and Section 20(2) of the act.

5. I request for an immediate appeal and that the date for my physical presence be communicated to be 15 days in advance.

6. Full name and Contact Details are as Follows,

XXXXXXXXXXXX

Note: Please forward this appeal to the appropriate authority if you are not the concerned officer under the provisions of RTI.

 

Place: Mumbai.

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taurus

You have stated that " Under Section 7 (8) (iii), it is his responsibility to forward it to the First Appellate Authority incase the PIO is not able to answer the queries." This is not correct. All that this section of the Act states is that the particulars of the AA should be intimated to the info seeker.

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ambrish.p

Can change

 

Since it is the PIO’s responsibility to inform me of the particulars of the appellate authority as per Section 7 (8) (iii), and he has not done so, it is his responsibility to forward it to the First Appellate Authority

 

regards

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

Hi,

thanks for the replies.

But, I had asked the "full details of the Appellate Authority" as part of one of the 13 questions in the RTI.PIO has not cared to reply for the same.

My Doubts now

1) How do i say it in the first appeal that PIO has not replied to all my questions even if she(Lady PIO) could do so. SO the PIO should be penalized for the same.

2) Also, how do i deal with the situation since as i mentioned the AA and the PIO are 2 ladies in the same dept. They have kind of a nexus and would mellow me down by speaking a lot of things( i have met them earlier they go to limits to defend themselves). How do i tell her that your loving collegue is liable for a fine under the act.

3) There can be a case where the AA says that for PAN Migration and status i need to contact some diff PIO in the same building. Since i know tht PAN MIGRATION has to be done by them automatically, so can i say that its their responsibilty to give me the complete picture.

4) Since she didnot inform me of the First AA , i have forwarded the Appeal to Commissioer of IT in the same buidling.Could you please tell me if the provisions that make an RTI Query transferaable to the other PIO also apply to the APPEALs. Hence would in my case, the duty lie with teh commissioner to forward the appeal to the correct Apellate authority if he is not the correct person.

5) how can i do so without sounding misbehaving and how do i make them not sweep things under the carpet by answering questions this time around. They should surely be penalized for not answering at the first go.

thanks

sandeeprak singh

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karira

Answering your post point by point:

 

1. In that case it become denial of information or incomplete information. This will be one of the grounds of your First Appeal.

During the First Appeal you cannot ask for "Penalty". That is a prerogative of only the CIC/SIC. All you can do is to "pray" to the FAA to "inform the PIO in writing that the applicant will move the CIC for a Second Appeal under Sec 19(3) and demand a imposition of Penalty under Sec 20(1) for denying me this information and giving me incomplete information"

2. The FAA is always a "senior officer to the PIO" in the public authroiry (same office). All you can do is to remind the AA at the start of the hearing that "Madam you are now adjudicating this First Appeal under Sec 19(1) of the RTI Act as a quasi-judicial authority. Therefore, I hope, that your hearing and the consequent order is fair, just and follows the principles of natural justice"

3. Once you hav esubmitted your RTI application, it is the responsibility of the recipient department to collect that information and provide it to you. She can seek assistance of any other officer (can be another PIO in the same Public Authority) under Sec 5(4) to get this information but she is the one who should provide it to you. There are DoPT circulars in this regard. Ask the AA during your hearing as to why the PIO is not obeying the circulars issued by the Nodal agency for RTI ?

Please see:

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/5963-dopt-circular-re-clarification-sec-5-4-sec-5-5-a.html

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/3378-dopt-circular-creating-single-point-right-information-applications-if-more-than-one-cpio.html

4. There is no transfer of Appeals from one officer to another under the RTI Act. But if that Commissioner is genuine, then he will send it to the correct FAA.

5. This statement might help to lighten the mood:

"Madam I am not from Pakistan, but like you I am also a citizen of India. Please do not think I am your enemy. I am only using my Right given to me. There is nothing personal against you or the PIO - all I am requesting is to follow the proper rules, be transparent and be accountable."

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

Thanks A lot for your answers.

There have been latest actions on my appeal..

1) Some one from Income tax casually called me and said.."Aapka Pan Migrate kar diya hai"..

2) Some PIO came back with another letter with another one liner to say that my Refund is in RRR Stage only.

3) The first appellate authority is not her senior madam..but some one else. I came to know from that letter that they have sent me stating that my Appeal is on 18th of this month at 11:00 pm.

4) Now what should i insist on

a)Point by Point answers to my 13 question RTI query. What if they say such an answer is not possible

b) i want that PIO to be penalised because she has made mockeries of many RTI's but no one i know has gone ahead to first appeals.

c) What if the FAA tries to side with him..I am very sure..knowing them they would try to do that.and provide answers like..such an such information is not available.

 

Can you please provide me your mobile nos. where i can take ur help. i am unable to ulpoad a lot of things because the size is too much.

 

Am all confused/excited/worried about my first ever appeal:)..

 

Could you contact me on xxxxxxxxxx

Thanks

Sandeepraj Singh

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taurus

That is good news. There is progress in your case. In the personal hearing you may insist for all the info you wanted. They have to give or furnish satisfactory reason why they cant do so under the Act. If they patch up and offer immediate refund and settlement of any other grievance that you may have with them, grab that opportunity. The FAA has no powers, under the RTI Act, to penalise the PIO. So, you may show your unhappiness amply.

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

Hi

I just wanted to share my experience during the FAA.

On 18th Feb 2009, i reached my office earlier to speed up work and went to the IT office in Mumbai at 11:00am. I reached there 5 minutes ago, gasping for breath running so that i could reach there in time. i was hoping that there would be a meeting of sorts going on. what i found was this:

As soon as i entered, i saw an ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONER with his first shirt button open and a pack of ciggaretes that he might have been smoking along side. He then asked my whereabouts and placed a call to the PIO. I in the mean while explained him the grounds for the appeal and he heard it as if "he knew it all". The PIO then turned up and he immiedeltey told her to ask some one else to prepare 13 answers to 13 questions. All this was done verbally. He later wrote on some paper which i in my frustation didnot even see whether it was a rough paper or some standard paper..i think it was some rough paper. He then told me that replies would be given but your work would be done or not is not guarenteed. When i in the presence of the PIO asked her, why she had not informed me of the Appeallate authority details even though that was one of the question. She simply said sorry!!!\.In this , the FAA jumped on to her defence. He said..she didnot answer that question because that was not my primary concern. and some how just rounded off the discussion. I dont understand..where it goes..i am sure to receive incomplete or incorrect replies again. I dont know when would i receive any reply now.

So down after First Appeal.

Any help....

sandeepraj singh...

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ganpat1956

Sandeepraj,

 

There is no need for you to have attended the first appeal if you had properly made out your case in the appeal itself. Your present "down" is on account of too many expectations out of your FA.

 

First shirt button open--that is how I have been working in my office for the last 30 years. Neither my superiors nor my customers have taken it as an offence. Don't miss the woods looking at a few stunted trees.

 

Your post does not specify if you started the narration all by yourself or whether you were asked by the FAA to state your case. Karira had suggested a very good opening point in his post #9 to commence the proceedings officially. Did you attempt to do it. Please remember FA is a quasi-judicial process,and not a round of formal discussions. You should have insisted the FAA to record your grounds of appeal and to gie you a reasoned decision.

 

All deficiencies apart, now you have no aternative than to wait for the outcome of the FA, by way of FAA's decision. For all future occassions, study the Act carefully, make proper preparations right from the stage of application so that your knowledge on the subject is more than that of the PIO/FA. When that is done, you will not get any feeling of being let down.

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taurus

It is very interesting. A young man visiting the office of the FAA with lot of expectations and returning with dashed hopes! You have narratted what happened inthe 'hearing'. But what did you expect before going there? I am anxious to know what exactly you had imagined that would happen during the 'hearing'. Where your expectations have been belied? Please let us know. It would give a good insight about the info-seekers' mind to the FAAs who are members of this forum.

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

Hi,

Well i expected some sort of seriousness

1) I did open the meeting in a very formal manner disregarding all the FAA's attempts to make the process an irrelevant one.

2) I expected the FAA to atleast know about my case and then call up the PIO and ask him the reasons for not providing me the information. On the contrary, He was defending the PIO with all his defences.

3) When i persisted on the Fine, he said, that there are HUMAN ANGLES that he needs to give to the people of his department.

4) I expected the FAA to atleast ask the PIO his logic of not providing me the details of the FAA and the PIO to stay in the room for as long there is a rational end to the discussion. On the other hand, the PIO came , said sorry for not replying, pointed to the FAA saying that"Oh you were asking for FAA, he is the one..." said sorry and then went away.

5) He said, he would reply to the questions and grounds for the appeal. I now want to know, how many days should i get a reply in and what to do next.

6) I only expected the process to be what it was ..a QUASI JUDICIAL Process, on the other hand, it was a QUASI MOCKING process.

7) The point is not about Clothing comfort, the point was about decency..when it is a quasi judicial process, the FAA has to maintain some decency. Opening a shirt of the button in his A C room, while a woman is around and a CIGARETTE PACKET KEPT Along with his COMPUTER is not giving me any feel of a JUDICIAL Process.

All you guys have been of terrific help. I request you all to keep helping me..Please let me know

a. by when shold i expect FAA's response

b. if no reply is given what to do and when to do

c. how can i press for any sort of penalty for this mockery.

 

thanks

sandeepraj singh

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taurus

Thanks for sharing your views. Your expectations are completely justified and natural. But the 'proceeding' was anything but quasi-judicial, as elaborated by you. This shows the insensitivity of the FAA and may be lack of knowledge also. Or it may be a show of utter contempt to the process. In any case, your disappointment is justifiable. As per Sec 19 (6) of the Act, the appeal has to be disposed of withing 30 or at the most 45 days of the receipt of the appeal. Second appeal can be made within 90 days from the date on which the decision should have been made or was actually received. You can press for penalty only with the CIC at the second appeal stage. Not at the FAA stage.

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

I got a whole 10 page reply from them. but however, the moral of the story is that

1) System migration is on and they cant tell me by when can i recieve the cheque. After 31st march they would take the refund for manual processing

2) He is not going to apply any penalty on the officer.

3) The refund is at RRR stage which basically means not even started.

 

I would need to wait uptil may and then i would start another course of RTIs thanks for ur help

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taurus

Now that you got the info that you wanted, you cannot say that it is denied. Ofcourse, there is delay. But even that delay may not be classified as delay because, earlier itself the PIO has given you more or less the same info, though in a much briefer form. All that you may be able to do now is to ask them whether there is any time limit for such 'PAN migration' and if so what it is. After getting the info you may see whether you can ask them to take action on the person who has delayed, if there was delay. For not taking action they may have thousand and one excuses!!

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

Hi Guys,

After all this fight..

I finally recieved the First appeal Reply to my questions..Answering each and every answer in question and answer format.

Whats more is that i understood over the phone that my cheque has been despatched on 20-5-2009.

However, the cheque yet has not reached me.

Moreover they dont have any delivery details of the cheque that they could share.

But how come around 1 month has passed and the cheque has not reached me??

Are they lying??

Does it mean that i have to again go for RTI?

Thanks

Sandeepraj

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whackpack

dear sandeepraj,

 

the FAA has no powers to impose penalty, so no point praying for the same. if you do not get complete info, you will be free to file your second appeal, which is when you can pray for penalty and compensation.

 

hope that helps.

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karira

Sandeepraj,

 

If you go for Second Appeal to the CIC, it is a long and torturous process.

 

I think it is better to refer to the information in the reply you received from the FAA and use that to file another RTI application to get your missing cheque.

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taurus

File another RTI application to get the missing cheque. Are they still sending cheques, in this age of ECS transfers?

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

Thanks karira and tauraus.

Thats precisely my qyuestion..What are the details that i should ask for. THey said..they sent a speed post. But speed post should not take ages. What are the speed post details that i should ask for???

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whackpack

sandeepraj,

 

pl make sure your address in the pan card database is the correct and latest. if you registered the pan card with old address, and moved later, the refund will still be going to the old address, even if you are filing your returns from a new address (even if in different ward).

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sandeeprajsinghtandon

thanks whackpack,

But there is no issue with the address. The Pan card has been migrated to the correct address. but my basic question is

 

What are the details that i should ask for in this RTI application. They said..they sent the cheque through speed post. But speed post should not take ages. What are the speed post details that i should ask for???

 

Can you give me pointers

 

thanks

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