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Raj7

RTI application rejected by PIO

Question

Raj7

Hi,

After along search found this community, thanks for sharing RTI related info.

I filed RTI application last month, My RTI application rejected by PIO with an answer "questions cannot be answered under RTI"

I filed RTI application in "Tamil language" my RTI is regarding the procedure for registration of land in that area, PIO-sub registrer.

 

 questions              1) இந்த கிராமத்தில் நிலம் வாங்க /விற்க வட்டாட்சியரின் அனுமதி பெற வேண்டுமா/ வேண்டாமா?

                                 2) இந்த கிராமத்தில் நிலம் வாங்க/ விற்க வட்டாட்சியரின் அனுமதி பெற வேண்டும் என அரசாணை உள்ளதா?

 

In english 1) is there any permission required from thasildar to buy/sell land in the village?

                   2) Are there any GO's available regarding permission required from thasildar to buy/sell land?

 

Kindly help should I redraft the application or go for first appeal?

 

Thanks

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Sunil Ahya

Ideally one should be seeking information (photocopy of documents) in accordance with the definition of section 2(f) of the RTI Act

But having said that, you may file a first appeal within 30 days of the PIO's reply on the following grounds:

Grounds of First Appeal:

1. I had requested for a photocopy of the documents wherein had been noted noted the permissions required to be taken from a Tehsildar for buying or selling land in the (describe here fully the name and other particulars of Village) XX Village as well as a photocopy of any Government Order / Circular etc. in this regard, however, the PIO has declined to provide the requested information.

As per the provision of section 7(1) of the RTI Act, a requested information is to be either provided or a request rejected for any of the reasons specified under section 8 and 9 of the said Act.

The PIO has neither provided the requested information nor rejected the request for any of the reasons specified under section 8 and 9 of the said Act, and therefore the PIO has disposed of my request for information in violation of the provision of section 7(1) of the said Act.

2. Furthermore in this regard, the Appellant would humbly like to draw the kind attention of this Hon'ble First Appellate Authority towards the persuasive precedent of Central Information Commission in Case No. CIC/SS/A/2012/000395 Dated: 17.5.2012 wherein it had had held that prefixing of 'why & what does'nt debar an applicant from receiving information under the RTI Act.

Please find the relevant excerpt from the aforecited CIC decision reproduced below for the kind perusal of the Hon'ble Authority:

Quote:

Simply because the appellant has prefixed his query with why and what does not debar him for receiving information, which is admittedly a part of the record held by the respondent. The Commission therefore directs the CPIO to provide the action taken on appellant’s RTI application for issue of non-official photo pass as well as the reasons for rejection of application, as per record.

Unquote

Prayers:

1. Kindly direct the PIO to provide the information requested through the RTI application.

2. Kindly direct the PIO to provide the information free of cost in accordance with the provision of section 7(6) of the RTI Act.

3. Any other relief in the interest of justice.

Enclosed herewith:

1. RTI application dated: XX

2. PIO's response dated: XX

3. The persuasive precedent of the decision of CIC in Case No. CIC/SS/A/2012/000395 Dated: 17.5.2012.

You may download the CIC decision from the following link and enclose along with your first appeal:

prefixing of why & what doesnt debar applicant from receiving info..pdf

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Raj7

Many thanks for the info Sir,

I need few more clarifications Sir

I asked questions numbered 1,2, 2a, 2b, to 8.

except 2(b) all are rejected as questions.

PIO in his letter mentioned for 2(b) (no question mark in my application)

info 2(b):

You can get the copy of doc by paying Rs.2 per page

But the important questions unanswered :

no. 4: how many land registration done from 1/1/2012 to 31/8/2018 in xxx village? provide me details of all.

no.8: For land registration in xxx village is there any GO's that "x" caste people are only allowed to buy/sell land from "x" caste people?

Is this right way for asking info Sir?

no.4 valid?

Coz these info's are what am looking for,

do I rephrase and file' seperate RTI or just file an appeal for the existing?

 

Once again Many thanks Sir

 

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Prasad GLN

In addition to most valuable guidance through actual draft of first appeal by Shri Sunil  Ahya, Moderator of RTI Team, the following may help you to understand RTI better.

The first step for seeking information under RTI

Write down what exactly you require avoiding interrogatory form of seeking information (It is not barred, but many PIOs are aware of very old decision and not the IC SG's decision later  that irrespective of the form of query, if that information is available in material form, it must be provided)

Whether that information is available in the form of material

Identify the custodian of that information (Public authority)

Next  search website of the Public authority and

Find out Public Information officer,

Format of application

Mode of remitting fees.

The above is in general and uniform process to file RTI Application.

Now coming to your query you have  informed that PIO, Sub-Registrar was custodian of that information,.  You can also file fresh application and can seek such information  without going for first appeal .  However , remember that you are entitled to get all copies free of charge, if the FAA decides that information was denied on wrong grounds of exemption and there was delay  of more than 30 days from date of RTI application to the date of providing information.

As per my understanding you wanted simple information as to whether there is any bar in purchasing properties in that village to some classes of persons.  This is simple and you need not even file RTI and can seek information orally from Revenue Assistant or even a Stamp vendor or documentary writer or Advocate and get instant guidance. In case if you do not get such information, you can file RTI Application to PIO, Village Panchayat and seek information.

Information solicited:

1)Please provide me the copies  of orders/circular/Gazette notifications on sale / purchase of agricultural land in the village to specific castes of persons.

Coming to specific queries unanswered in your earlier RTI to PIO raised in your second post.

no. 4: how many land registration done from 1/1/2012 to 31/8/2018 in xxx village? provide me details of all.

Now restructure the query as follows in your fresh RTI.

1.Please provide me the copy of the Register Folos  showing land registrations from 1-1-2012 to 31-08-18

If the Sub Registrar maintains registers village wise you may get that information.  As per my knowledge, Sub registrar maintains serial no year wise for all registrations during that year in his entire jurisdiction.   As the register contains all registrations of hundreds of villages, as per RTI, he can not compile that information  of a particular village, because applicant wants it.  It is not PIO's job.  He can provide that information as is available in his record and he can not collect or compile such information as per DOPT directives.

So by asking entire details you can sort out your village registrations if the register copy is provided by PIO.

If that information is denied or not provided for any reason alternative process is seeking the copy of Register of Mutations in your village from PIO of Village, with an understanding that who ever purchases mutates the revenue records in his name. Then you have to seek information as follows:

Please provide me copy of the Register that shows mutation of agricultural land in...............village from 1-1-20-12 to 31-8=2018

Your second unanswered query was as follows:

no.8: For land registration in xxx village is there any GO's that "x" caste people are only allowed to buy/sell land from "x" caste people?

As already guided seek that information from PIO, Gram Panchayat as follows:

1)Please provide me the copies  of orders/circular/Gazette notifications on sale / purchase of agricultural land in the village to specific castes of persons.

(What I understand and presume for your queries is that 1.There is really a ban on sale of land from SC/ST to other caste citizens to protect the interests of that class of people from exploitation by rich.  2.  You have knowledge that even when there is ban, some citizens are enjoying such SC Land by purchasing it in the name of 'Benami" and you are targeting against them to expose such irregular procedure)

 

Edited by Prasad GLN
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Raj7

Dear Prasad Sir, your last 4 lines caught half of issues about the problem am facing in my village.

Many thanks for sharing lot of info

I have briefly written the problem I am facing below

Edited by Raj7

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Raj7
6 hours ago, Prasad GLN said:

As per my understanding you wanted simple information as to whether there is any bar in purchasing properties in that village to some classes of persons.  This is simple and you need not even file RTI and can seek information orally from Revenue Assistant or even a Stamp vendor or documentary writer or Advocate and get instant guidance. In case if you do not get such information, you can file RTI Application to PIO, Village Panchayat and seek information.

 

I tried to buy a property in xx village, while preparing documentaton with doc writer, he told me I have to get NOC from Thasildar.

Myself and seller approached Thasildar and submitted all paper for getting a NOC,

after a month thasildar rejected the application by stating "I don't have any authority to give NOC for land registration"

I approached the staff in sub registrar office and asked is NOC is really needed for registration, he showed me a notice board copy

it states NOC is required from thasildar as by circular from SC/ST District welfare officer, without NOC land registration on xx village not allowed.

The NOC sample gave by doc writer stated :

I belong to this ..........caste and would like to buy the land in xx village, kindly  provide....

 

I directly went to disctrict welfare office and asked for the circular's/orders no.xxxxxxxx dated 2014 year regarding this issue,

The officer treated us good and searched for the order but can't find, then he enquired with nearest sub registrar,

and told us that its a circular,it doesn't meant to bar selling/buying but we don't have it now, check with the sub -registrar who asking NOC.

we  personally approached the office 2,3 times the staff's not responding properly and nor providing the circular telling lame reasons its old one we need time to search months having been passed by this time.

I came to know some of the land registrations happened in that village in recent times,
 

Quote

 

So only I filled an RTI seeking informations required for land registrations in xx village 

what are the registrations happened and who bought the land

provide me copies of submitted NOC's but everyting in question form except 2(b)so PIO rejected as questions think so


 

(Add I also filed RTI to District welfare officer(PIO) to provide me circular copy 1 more week left for 30days)

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Prasad GLN

Report this as grievance to Collector that authorities like sub Registrar, Tehasildar and welfare board failed to provide such circular and request him to provide either link to that uploaded GO and pray for directions to  the concerned   to provide such copy.

Contact Advicate for the possibilities of taking  the land on long term lease  when outright sale is prohibited as you can never purchase the property--This is your personal issue.

Coming to such registration in favour of others (in favour of non SC) you may complain to collector.  Avoid friction and do not spoil  your peace of mind, when there is no  remedy and it is not helping. you.

In this forum we follow a discipline and never encourage those things that are not proper legally.

Edited by Prasad GLN
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Raj7
43 minutes ago, Prasad GLN said:

Coming to such registration in favour of others (in favour of non SC) you may complain to collector.  Avoid friction and do not spoil  your peace of mind, when there is no  remedy and it is not helping. you.

Dear Sir,

I belong to SC community and seller belong to ST community, I searched a lot, enquired advocate too,

they told me no restrictions for SC people, its for other than than SC/ST.

But am not able to get any proper doc to get forward my registration

Thanks alot for taking time and answering me Prasad Sir.

yes I too have huge respect for legal procedures,

I want to know the real facts which  bars peoples to sell lands in that village.

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Sunil Ahya

As guided by Hon'ble Prasadji, you may file a new RTI application, just make sure that in every such RTI query you add a phrase "please provide a photocopy of the document" wherein has been noted ....... and such RTI queries should be fine to go forward.

You can make a draft RTI application and post it in this thread so that the members can vet it.

Once you receive the authentic information under RTI, you can then approach the sub-Registrar for registering the property by showing him the authentic information received under RTI.

 

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Raj7

ok Sunil Sir, will draft new application

Many thanks

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Prasad GLN

If such lands are covered under Forest area, those land transactions  were exclusively allowed in beetween  Schedule tribes alone  to protect their interest and exploitation, even during the then composite Madras state.    Even in AP, and Telangana such rules are strictly implemented and even if some enter into such  transactions, those purchasers never dared to commence any activity as Naxals targeted those rich persons.

If you are sure that there is no such bar on SC, you can issue a Regd Notice to Sub Registrar under CP Act pointing out simple deficiency in their services and state that you may have to approach consumer forum for getting due justice under law.

Notice under CP Act.

I,............................son of ......................aged, belonging to SC caste, residing at ................................ herein referred as 'Complainant .issue the notice hereunderto Sub Registrar, ..........................................alleging deficiency of services as follows.

The complainant has entered into agreement for purchase of lands at ................village, and complainant was informed that the lands can not be registered under some notifications.   The complainant has requested for such notifications that bar of sale to SC from.................and visited the office several times, but without providing such copy of circular etc., Sub Registrar is delaying the matter, preventing me from Registering the lands.

Due to this, the seller may escalate the rates, if lands are not registered and the complainant may end up losing  advance amount and will be subjected to irreparable financial loss.

As Public Authority, Sub-Registrar is bound to state specific reasons and provide such copy of Public records and without providing those documents, denial amounts to deficiency of services.

The complainant may be constrainted to make a complaint before District Forum for deficiency of services, if the copy of circular / notification is not provided to him within a week.

Please take this as notice under CP Act

Place

Date                                                                               Complainant

To

Sub Registrar

......................

 

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Raj7

"Regd Notice" thru advocate?

Thanks Prasad Sir, will check with the documents they are going to provide as told in first response of PIO and make further move on

CP act.

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Prasad GLN

Any consumer who wishes to avail services by paying consideration to any party to get such services is a consumer.

The draft is provided as an additional remedy for such inconvenience caused to you and to speed up their actions.  You can issue the notice yourself and there is no need to contact an advocate for simple notice for deficiency of services.   Even if you file a complaint in Forum, as facts are known to you, you can file the complaint and maximum expenditure may not be over Rs.500/-  You can demand compensation also with such expenditure on forum and expenses for your so many visits and correspondence. 

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Raj7

ohh I never knew about this Sir, wil proceed with CP if I am unable to get it solved.

4 hours ago, Prasad GLN said:

Even if you file a complaint in Forum

"Forum" means what Sir?

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Prasad GLN

Any  person  who wishes to avail services by paying consideration to any party to get such services is a consumer..  If the services is not proper, he is entitled to get costs, compensation etc from the service provider (Opposite party)

The forum that accepts the complaint in District  is like a Court  for consumers without such lengthy/voluminous procedures and every DIstrict is having such Consumer Forums that accept simple complaint on the deficiency of services to consumers with nominal fees of Rs.100/ Please search in google and find out 
After one month from issuing Notice on such deficiency of services, 2 years from the occurrence of the event a complaint can be filed for deficiency of services before District Consumer Forum seeking costs, expenses, and compensation for deficiency of services. 

The complaint should have details of 1.Complainant 2.Opposite party 3. The services offered by them 4.The consideration paid already or to be paid in future 5.Deficiency  6.Notice 7.The response of OP for notice 8.A postal order of Rs.100/- towards fees 9. Geographical Jurisdiction   6.Cause of action 7.Prayer part.  The only section relevant is Sec.2 (d) to establish that complainant is a consumer and the opposite party may be a Govt organization or private party that offers service for consideration.   

There are chances of first appeal to State Commission and further appeal to National Commission depending on grounds of dismissal of a complaint.

In your case, the duty of sub-registrar is to register documents after collecting such fees for registration as consideration.  Sub-registrar refused such service and not stating such reasons for rejection of registration for long and as such there is a deficiency of services by him.  You are the complainant and Sub Registrar is the opposite party. (The consideration might have been paid already or payable in future.

.  Every citizen must have three books in his library in the form of Bare Acts (each book costs about Rs.60/).  The essential acts are 1.RTI Act 2.The Consumer Protection Act, 1986 3.  Legal Services Authority act.     They can be downloaded from websites also. 

Please stop further posts in this thread as it is confined only to the subject "RTI Application rejected by PIO" alone and unnecessary lengthy posts are being made deviating from the main thread, which is against discipline.           

Edited by Prasad GLN
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