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gargville

RTI to Bank of India rejected under sec.2 of RTI Act mentioning as query and not information

Question

gargville

Hello,

Background: After getting CBS cheques, we stopped using firm's (partnership firm) rubber stamp on it as it is already pre-printed with "for Company Name". One of the cheques bounced with reason 'signature incomplete'. After confirming with Bank I was told that the firm's rubber stamp was missing. The firm must have issued more than 10 cheques with no rubber stamp and only one bounced.

From what I guess, rules should be same at every clearing branch at least in a state (Jharkhand).

 

So I wrote a RTI application to CPIO, Bank of India asking the following information.

 

 

1. For a partnership firm is it mandatory to put firm’s rubber stamp on CBS cheques issued by the bank which already has “for Company Name” pre-printed on it.

 

2. If your answer to question no. 1 is yes. Kindly provide me the copy of official rules/notifications on the above matter.

 

3. How does the bank handle CBS cheques under clearing with pre-printed “for Company Name” and without firm’s rubber stamp on it?

 

4. Does your bank reserve discriminatory power on whether such cheques (as mentioned above) will be cleared or not. If yes then let me know the criteria & context related to CBS cheques on which your bank takes such action.

 

5. Is the rule for handling CBS cheques (as above) same all over Jharkhand or it differs with different branches/clearing houses.

 

***********************

 

CPIO did reply with the following:

 

It is observed that the point raised by you is only a query and not information as defined under Sec.2 of RTI Act and as such outside the purview of RTI Act.

 

However as per practice of the bank, rubber stamp of the firm is required on the cheque.

 

******************

 

The CPIO did confirm that rubber stamp is required. But how come the rest of the cheques passed and cleared leaving one to bounce.

 

Could you point the mistakes I made while framing the questions. How else could I have asked the above information.

 

Thank You.

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dr.s.malhotra

last 3 points are almost queries , PIO had a chance to reject those .

PIO has answered point 1 , but with-held information on point 2 . File first appeal with AA of the bank for getting copy of the Rules .

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gargville

Dr. Malhotra thank you for replying.

How would you suggest one can ask the last 3 questions without tagging it as query. I am a little confused on distinguishing between information and query.

Further I also missed one more question about the significance and use of mentioning "for Company Name" on CBS cheques when rubber stamp is still mandatory.

 

I am thinking of filing a fresh RTI. Your suggestions in framing questions on above topic will be valuable.

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dr.s.malhotra

a query is like asking an opinion or questioning the functioning of the PA .

Suppose an officer passes an apparently illegal order . Now if you ask " how could he do it ? " this is questioning [ challenging ] the functioning of the officer of the authority . If you ask for copy of the said illegal Order or any other document / record in relation to that illegal order , it will be supplied to you .

I hope I am clear .

In fact none of your last queries would serve any purpose if you look carefully , only your urge is to snub the PA / PIO , If you want to take real action , then Information [ copy of the rules / norms ] is the answer . If they have gone against the rules , your stand is vindicated and you can approach the consumer forum . This is the explanation .

 

yes you may file fresh RTI request .

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RAVEENA_O

A Query is one which elicite an answer from the PIO , with prefx 'how', 'why' etc.

 

The definition of information, as it occurs in Section 2(f), lays down scope of the type of information an applicant can seek. The underlying idea is clearly that the Applicant’s entitlement for information is only in respect of the categories of information mentioned in Section 2(f) read with Sec.2(i) and (j). It is not open to an applicant to ask, in the guise of seeking information, queries to public authorities about the nature and quality of their actions. The RTI Act also does not cast on public authority any obligation to answer queries. Applicant’s right extends only to seek information as defined in Section 2 (f) & (j) either by pinpointing the file, document, paper, record or sample etc, or by mentioning the type of information as may be available with the specified public authority.

 

The information you need can be sought like this:

 

1. Certified copy of Rule/Circular/Notification/Memorandum indicating that it is mandatory to put firm’s rubber stamp on CBS cheques issued by the bank which already has “for Company Name” pre-printed on it.

 

2. (delete since included in item-1

 

3. Certified copy of Rule/Circular/Notification/Memorandum indicating the method to handle CBS cheques under clearing with pre-printed “for Company Name” and without firm’s rubber stamp on it.

 

4. Certified copy schedule of power or Schedule of Delegation empowering the Managers / officers to clear CBS cheques with pre-printed “for Company Name” and without firm’s rubber stamp on it.

 

5. Certified copy schedule of power or Schedule of Delegation empowering the Managers / officers to dishonour CBS cheques with pre-printed “for Company Name” and without firm’s rubber stamp on it.

 

 

RTI GUIDEhttp://www.rtiindia.org/guide/

http://www.rtiindia.org/guide/fundam...he-rti-act-18/

http://www.rtiindia.org/guide/how-to...pplication-16/

 

For drafting and submitting RTI Application:

 

http://www.rtiindia.org/guide/how-to-use-your-right-to-information-4/how-to-write-an-rti-application-1/

 

For sample RTI Application:

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/vb:editpost

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smbhappy

Always avoid the words starting with "W' and "H" while asking for information.

 

W = who, where, why, when, whom, etc.

H = How etc.

 

Always start with

"Please supply me the certified copies of ....." or

"Pease provide me the information......"

 

Never ask for the opinion of the PIO. Always ask for the "Information" i.e., material in any form, including:

records,

documents,

memos,

e-mails,

opinions (not of PIO - but which are available on record),

advises (not of PIO - but which are available on record),

press releases,

circulars,

orders,

logbooks,

contracts,

reports,

papers,

samples,

models,

data material held in any electronic form and

information relating to any private body which can be accessed by a public authority under any other law for the time being in force;

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gargville

@Dr. Malhotra : Now I do get the difference between query and information. A re-look at my questions do make me realize the way I asked was not good. Although the intention was to get the actual rules that govern the cheque clearing.

 

@Raveena : Thank You. Your post is quite useful. The questions you framed helped me get an overall idea of using RTI the best way.

 

@Surendera : Thank You, the basic rule you mentioned would come handy.

 

I will be filing a fresh RTI based on the format as told by all above. Focusing on the documents/memos related to queries I asked.

 

Further digging into the cheque issue. I found that most of the cheques went to Jamshedpur where it was cleared without any issues. One cheque went to Dhanbad where it got bounced due to no rubber stamp.

 

My last RTI was to CPIO Dhanbad.

Should I file the RTI to Jamshedpur also or just to Dhanbad.

Right now I have copied the questions framed by @Raveena above. Any more changes or additions that can be made to it.

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RAVEENA_O

Go ahead. Go through the links in my post#5. You have to attach application fee of Rs.10/-

Give your clear address with Pin Code. That's all. Say that you want the information by post.

 

Please revert back if you face any difficulty, we are here to help you.

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smbhappy

Be very clear why asking for the information, as the basic instincts of PIOs is to avoid giving information. The best way to ask for information is to write a simple letter (not under RTI Act) to the Public Authority giving your complaint or grievance (as if you are are filing a RTI Application) Send this through Speed Post, giving there in 10 days time to respond.

 

After 10 days, file RTI Application with the PIO of the concerned Public Authority via Speed Post. While filing RTI Application detailing the problem being faced by you and quoted therein your all previous references of letter/telephone/personal visits to the office of the Public Authority and ask for the following information (Please use all or some points as suited to you. Point No. 6 to 9 below is essential for quick and positive action):

 

01. Inform me the day to day action taken on my various requests made earlier (give date wise detail of your letters/visits/phone calls).

02. Inform me the time needed as per law to finalize the required action.

03. Inform me latest status of my request.

04. Provide me the certified copies of the

a. File Notings relating to this matter from DD/MM/YYYY to DD/MM/YYYY.

b. Day-to-day moment of File relating to this matter from DD/MM/YYYY to DD/MM/YYYY.

(in a decision involving the EPFO, IC SG has clearly ruled that the day to day movement of the file has to be given in the format asked for. http://www.rti.india.gov.in/cic_deci...14_M_37059.pdf)

05. Inform me reasons for the delay

06. Inform me Name & Designation of the officers/Officials responsible for taking action on your request.

07. Inform me Name & Designation of the officers/Officials responsible for causing delay on your request.

08. This application may also be treated as a Notice u/s 80 CPC and the action taken thereunder may also be inform to me in due course.

09. I have paid fee for the purpose. I am a consumer. The delay is a deficient service. Moreover I am being harassed. What compensation is proposed to paid to me. if Nothing, This may please be treated as a Notice under the Consumer Protection Act, 1986.

10. Inform me the manner in which the PA is proposing to compensate you for the mental agony and deficient service.

11. Any other point on your mind (Think Hard).

 

DO ALL YOUR CORRESPONDENCE THROUGH SPEED POST.

 

Here's the web address of the Helpline of the President of India's Secretariat where you can file and/or upload your grievance and later on view the status of the same. You may also file an online complaint to the President of India’s Secretariat at http://helpline.rb.nic.in/

The grievances arising out of unsatisfactory response or No response from the Ministry/Department concerned will be taken up by the PG officers of DAR&PG who will take up the matter with the Ministry/Department concerned for close monitoring and expeditious redress. You can lodge your complaints for all ministries of central government and state governments at the following link http://cpgrams.nic.in/Netizen/arpgn.asp?wci=grievance&wcu.

 

Most probably your work will be done with a quick pace, which you would had never expected under normal circumstances.

 

You will find necessary help for filing the RTI Application by clicking the ”Home” or "RTI Guide" button in the Menu Bar at the top of this page. Also please use the customized Google search located at the top of this page and search for "relating to your problem", etc. and you may get a/many threads.

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jps50

Bank has committed error in returning cheque and CPIO has given you wrong reply as far as rubber stamp issue is concerned. If firm name is pre-printed on cheques [which is done by bank itself], then it is not necessary to have rubber stamp affixed. However, if signature is incomplete or differs from specimen, then bank is correct.

 

If signature is correct, you may file a complaint with Nodal Officer of the bank claiming compensation also. Please refer attachment to this post.

 

As for framing queries etc, please be guided by:

 

Make effective:

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/blogs/jps50/93-how-make-rti-application-effective.html

 

Central Govt application:

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/blogs/jps50/19-rti-application-central-govt-info.html

BANKING PROBLEM.doc

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jps50

As regards query type requests in RTI application I invite reference to notification No. 1/7/2009-IR dated 20-05-2011 of DoPT available at http://www.rti.gov.in and following CIC decisions:

 

CIC/SG/A/2010/000412/7464 dated 15-04-2010

CIC/SM/A/2010/001043 dated 24-05-2011

 

These are available at http://www.rti.india.gov.in

 

Bank of India has designated all its branch heads as ACPIO and hence you can deliver RTI application and cash of Rs.10 to any branch nearest to you. You will save postage charges. Appeals can also be delivered at any branch.

I think your case does not require RTI push at this stage. If bank is not responding to your complaint, you can resort to RTI by referring to:

 

 

Long pending ? :

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/blogs/jps50/69-any-thing-pending-govt.html

 

Your problem will be solved at HO level [nodal officer-address at bank's website] or at Banking Ombudsman level. You can efile complaint to banking ombudsman of State where you are having account. Please visit

http://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/bs_viewcontent.aspx?Id=159

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gargville

@Sunil Ahya : the blog post is useful and explains a lot. Thanks for pointing to it.

 

@J.P Shah : Sir, Is there any time limit within which I have to file an formal complaint with the Bank. Like 30 days or 6 months.

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jps50

There is no time limit for complaint to bank, but for banking ombudsman time limit is one year. Ombudsman accepts complaints only after you have represented to bank and 30 days have passed.

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