ATM failed Transactions.

[sharadphadke 176]

In order to withdraw some urgent money, I made one withdrawal from ATM on 18-10-2009. The first transaction failed and so I made a second try. This time, I got Rs.1000/- as demanded. The security person commented, “Your account shall be credited next day for this failed transaction.”

But as a safety measure, I lodged an internet complaint for this failed transaction, took a “Print Screen” shots for complaint as well as receipt. Both this “Print Screen” shots helped me in all this failed transaction.

On 1-12-09 while my pass book was updated I found there is no credit for Rs. 1000/- for failed transaction and since I was in bank, I made enquiries and I was told to lodge a second complaint. Accordingly second complaint was lodged on that day.

On 1-1-2010 while updating my pass book I noticed, there is still no credit. On enquiries, I was told it takes about a month or some time more. But still visit 3rd floor and check in ATM section. The matter was left there only.

This is the first part of the story, second part started on 6-1-2010 evening when I was visiting RBI web page to find Singapore $ rate. I found a link for common persons, where in there were many notifications and my eye caught a notification dated 17-7-2009 for ATM reconciliation. I downloaded the pdf. The link to this page is:

 

Reserve Bank of India

 

On reading this pdf I was rather shocked! It had stated, if the complaint is not solved within 12 working days, I was to be given Rs. 100/- per day as compensation.

On next day, i.e. on 7-1-10, I took the print out of this notification and visited my bank at around 2 PM and showed it to the branch manager. The effect was very surprising and he promised to look in the matter and my residence received a call from bank staff that my account has been credited with Rs. 1000/- at around 5 PM. The message was also kept to call bank next day. I had high-lighted the condition of Rs. 100/- per day with high light marker. The Manager, Chief Manager and staff member started pleading some of the member from the branch shall be punished and he (Chief Manager) shall look in the matter and find the way. There was no action on his part for other 10 or more days.

 

Since this being a very major issue, in the mean time I contacted an advocate and asked if a public interest litigation can be filed in High Court and get the order for all banks to act on this rule and give the compensation. He confirmed that this can be done but there has to be some evidence from different banks as they are also not following this rule. Hence he dictated an application under RTI and asked me to visit 2 days later to collect print out. That day he refused to take the case on the ground of time and refused to give the draft also.

 

I thought of trying it my self and made application to:

 

1) Bank of Maharashtra, as the H.O. was in Pune where I stay.

2) Bank of Baroda, their Regional Office.

3) Dena Bank, in there Regional Office.

4) ICICI as they have ‘n number of ATM centers.

5) IDBI bank Mumbai.

6) Bank of India, Mumbai as my bank.

 

These banks were selected as test case and have no specific reason.

A separate application to RBI was also made since it was referred in there letter that they are receiving many complaints.

 

Questions asked to 6 banks were:

 

1) How many complaints were received for wrongfully debited on account of “failed ATM transactions”?

2) In how many days the wrongfully debited amount was credited to the account of customer? You may give the answer as min and max days taken.

3) Do you have any stipulated period policy to solve this type of complaint?

4) If so, what is the maximum period you have specified?

5) Do you reimburse any amount as compensation, for the delay caused in above period to the aggrieved customer?

6) If yes, what is the amount you reimburse to the aggrieved customer? And how it is calculated?

7) Do you have any system, to review this failed ATM transactions, and keep them to the Board of Directors, indicating inter alia, the quantum of compensation given to customer, reasons thereof, and action taken to avoid this delay?

8) If yes, supply me the copy of this report.

 

In the letter to RBI the questions were asked giving the reference to the directives they have sent to banks, given on web page and are as:

 

1) How many complaints you received in connection of ATM failure in 2008? Give the details bank wise.

2) How many complaints you received for above reason in 2009?

3) How many complaints you have received after 17-7-2009?

4) What mechanism you have set to enforce the Payment and Settlement System Act 2007, (Act 51 of 2007)? (Section-18)

5) Is there any facility given on web site which gives the acknowledgement to the complaint via net?

6) If not why?

 

I think answers from RBI are very funny and vague. The answer given by the Reserve Bank is as follows:

 

1) Information is not available with this department readily, since ATM related complaints are categorized along with credit / debit card complaints in our Complaint Tracking System. As per our records, we have received 17648 complaints relating to ATM cards, Debit cards and Credit cards during the year 2008-09.

2) – do -

3) – do –

5) The web site has no such provision

6) The information is not available with this dept.

 

4) Answer to my (4) was from different dept. and the answer is “For regulation of payment system, the bank lays down policies and issues directions under Section 18 of Payment and settlement systems act 2007 as and when necessary.” It also states I can appeal against this reply to so and so….

 

From the banks, the response is as below:

 

1) ICICI : We are not covered under TRI and referred CIC order dated 9-8-2007

2) IDBI : No of complaint-73700 and follows rules of RBI. Min-2 days max. 12 days, follows RBI guideline and pay 100/- p.d. Answer to Q-8 can not be given under sec. 8(1)(d) of RTI act.

3) Bank of Maharashtra : No. of complaint=40010 and follows RBI directions and “there was no such occasion of delay by card cell” Answer to Q-8 – Not applicable.

4) Bank of Baroda replied “as all information called for is maintained by corporate office and we are forwarding your application to them”

5) Dena Bank : One Branch Manager from nearer branch visited my house but house was locked and hence he kept a message requesting to call on his mobile. So far there is no reply from them so far.

6) Bank of India : There is no reply so far.

 

I had sent one more RTI letter asking bank why my account was not credited with Rs.6500/- on 7-1-2010 along with Rs.1000/- and the account was credited 0n 25-2-2010 for Rs.6500/- The second letter was to separate Public Interest Litigation keep me away from one of beneficiary in the case.

 

Now, I want your guidance in this case for archiving the goal on all India basis.

I wish each and every one who is deprived from this compensation part should get the money. And to get it for them how do I precede with current status. Now on each and every move is important because millions and millions are involed in this case.

[jps50 1,580]

One of the options is to give a feed back to RBI of your findings and request RBI to enforce its circular on failed ATM transactions through its regulatory and administrative authority. After a month or so file RTI application to know action taken on the feed back.

 

Filing writ in HC will be expensive and time consuming. RBI has already mandated in their circular that amount of Rs.100/- per day beyound 12 days should be credited with the refund amount, without customer asking for it. Majority of branch officers and mangers are not aware of such directives, though their HO would have circulated it. This is not a legal issue, it is administrative problem.

[karira 5,897]

Now, I want your guidance in this case for archiving the goal on all India basis.

 

You have started a very worthwhile and thankless effort !

 

Can you please mention point wise as to what is exactly the type of guidance you require from the members regarding the RTI process ?

 

This will enable our members to give precise guidance on each item.

[ganpat1956 673]

You have started a very worthwhile and thankless effort !

 

I would like to add : "Apparently frustrating endeavour" to Karira's observation. But the trick lies in not allowing yourself to get frustrated in a possibly long-drawn process. All our best wishes to you in this noble cause.

[mahekovoor 46]

I would like to add : "Apparently frustrating endeavour" to Karira's observation. But the trick lies in not allowing yourself to get frustrated in a possibly long-drawn process. All our best wishes to you in this noble cause.

 

Yes Ganpat, the trick lies in not allowing yourself get frustrated in a possibly long drawan process.

 

Best wishes from me too sor this noble cause

[sharadphadke 176]

One of the options is to give a feed back to RBI of your findings and request RBI to enforce its circular on failed ATM transactions through its regulatory and administrative authority. After a month or so file RTI application to know action taken on the feed back.

Dear Shah,

Look at the reply from RBI. They were asked - " What mechanism you have set to enforce the Payment and Settlement System Act 2007, (Act 51 of 2007)? (Section-18) " There answer is “For regulation of payment system, the bank lays down policies and issues directions under Section 18 of Payment and settlement systems act 2007 as and when necessary.” Have they replyed my quastion? This means there has to be first / second / third and many more appeals and I may get or may not get answer from them.

The best way is to make one more application in such a manner and wording so that I get the correct answer which can be used in court.

 

This is the help I want from my fellow members.

 

For me Rs. 1000/- were wrongly debited, I got them back. Then through RTI I got Rs. 6500/- matter ended.

But what about others who do not know this law? Do you mean to say, out of 1,14,000 people from just 2 banks have got there money back in 12 days and these honest banks have paid Rs. 100/- per day to the customer with out asking for it?

Now here your help is needed to re write a second RTI application which will get me a information which will stand in the court.

 

Filing writ in HC will be expensive and time consuming. RBI has already mandated in their circular that amount of Rs.100/- per day beyound 12 days should be credited with the refund amount, without customer asking for it. Majority of branch officers and mangers are not aware of such directives, though their HO would have circulated it. This is not a legal issue, it is administrative problem.

 

For a nobal reason some one has to take initiative. If the reason and cause is good the court fees are less. To my knowledge in case of public litigation matter I should not be getting any benifit from court order and I fit in this case. Secondly no law states you have to hire high value advocate. Our fellow member can make or draft this case here and I can representet the case my self. I need not be an advocate. The only thing is I must be acustom with court procedure and for that there are books which can be refered or the bench can be asked for help.

Now a days filing the case is also on line.

 

If there is any error in this reply, I hope my fellow member shall guide me for winning the cause.

 

High Court ya Suprime Court ke dande sivay konsi bhi Sarkar ki machinery hilti nahin.

 

Shri Shah ji, you say "WITH RTI YOU CAN BE ONE MAN ARMY: USE POWER OF ONE"

I say, Unite and use the power of All. If all fellow members start thinking to win this case as their case also some good can be achived which will definetly bring banks and RBI on track.

 

As far as banks are concerns, to circulate important notifications at proper level is there buiseness and we should not bother if all persons read or receive this. It is The Chairman and his next Assistants to see bank run as per rules. If it is not working it is their baby. Bank never gives a relif if your bank balance goes below certain limit. They charge you even if you say "I had deposited a cheque last week and not credited to a/c so far" They simply reply it is in system and we can not do any thing. So where there circulars goes is not our problem and our aim is to get justice for a common man and for people "Who have been deprived" by way of frudelent act from getting Rs. 100/- per day.

 

Very sorry if there are some spelling errors.

 

Jai RTI ! and Jai Bharat !!

[jj99 136]

First Thanks Mr. Sharad P. for this gr8 hard work

 

Asking different banks to provide information will be tedious and time consuming as per your goal of all india basis

 

what best needs to be done is via RBI only as RBI is nodal regulator of all banks and over that all banks has to abide by RBI

 

File RTI with RBI asking different questions on the same topic

more importantly ask them if information is provided on defaulted bank, what are the rules penalty or any such action by RBI and on how many banks this so called rule implemented

 

ask rbi mandatory information being provided by each bank on defaulted ATM trans. and action taken thereafter

[jps50 1,580]

If you want pressure to be exerted on RBI and banks through legal system, I would suggest approaching NATIONAL COMMISSION,Delhi [NCDRC] which is at par with High Court. It is less expensive, fast and pro-consumer. This problem is faced by large number of ATM users [including me in one case, where transaction failed for Rs.6000/- but account was debited and I got refund within 30 days]. The provision of Rs.100/- was not there at that time.

 

You may refer my blogs at Big Helpers Community - Right To Justice

 

I shall be posting draft of RTI application, which can be filed with all public sector banks. Private sector banks are not under RTI and we shall have to seek their information through RBI as stated at http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/blogs/jps50/154-how-get-information-private-entity-under-rti.html.

 

Penalty for delay has to be paid by the bank where customer is having account and not by the bank whose ATM was used.

[jps50 1,580]

Shri Phadkebhau,

 

I appreciate your concern and efforts you are prepared to put in for larger public interest.

 

I am attaching two draft RTI applications, which can be filed

1] with public sector banks inclg IDBI BANK. 2] Second one to RBI for private sector banks. You with other friends can select few banks for filing this application. Let us collect database and then proceed further. I think such queries itself will sensitise banks to be meticulous. RBI has issued three circulars dated 11-02-2009 and 23-10-2008 and dated 17-07-2009 on failed ATM transactions, but banks are slow in implementing and avoiding delay in reimbursements.

[jps50 1,580]

Sorry, draft RTI applications are attached to this post.

ATM BANK.doc

ATM RBI.doc

[sharadphadke 176]

Sorry, draft RTI applications are attached to this post.

 

Dear Shah bhai,

Thanks for the efferts you have taken in helping me to fight for general public in mind. If I start getting the help this fast from this forum and you in particular, we can make bank people dance.

I shall go through both letters and despatch them to all banks on RBI list. It is noticed that SBI has not stated their PIO specificaly. I shall find from RBI and send the letter.

There are every chance that the first letter I sent to bank may have many errors in drafting. I shall upload a pdf of common letter for our fellow member so that they also can view and help closing the holes. We togather want this to be full water tight case when presented to some authority. (and gas tight also)

 

Jai RTI and Jai Bharat.

[sharadphadke 176]

Some of my friends from IDBI have comented that our system may be crediting amount in 2 to 12 days for "OUR" ATMs. But what about SBI in particular and other banks ATM?

Both are now retired from IDBI now.

[karira 5,897]

Sorry, draft RTI applications are attached to this post.

 

many thanks for your efforts !

 

Sharad,

 

Please keep updating the forum on the progress of your RTI's and the subsequent results.

[jj99 136]

My view is when you ask for readymade info as per your choice they will say

"records not available " so we should approach and find out what is available and then proceed

[sharadphadke 176]

With few minor changes, looking at the actual wording in RBI reply I have started sending RIT applications to RBI and other banks.

Today I have posted to RBI and Bank of India.

[sharadphadke 176]

Lot of water has passed below the bridge and there is some progress in the matter of "ATM failed Transactions"

 

As per the advice from "jsp50" I have started second phase under RTI and first two letters as per his draft were sent to Bank of India and asking the information. No changes to the letters were made.

 

After sending these letters, I had a feeling that, we are making some mistake in the information we are seeking. Hence there was some delay in posting letter to other banks. Then I found the hitch, we are not asking for the delay in other bank's credit / Debit / Master Card!! Hence I made some changes to the letter given by our "jsp50" and added a sentence "including from the Card Holders from other banks. Please give the figures separately" This was added due to question aroused by IDBI person. Accordingly the letters were sent to:

 

Bank of Baroda

Canara Bank

Panjab National Bank

SBI

Union Bank of India.

 

In the mean while I have received reply from Bank of India. Scan copy is enclosed below. It may be concluded that Bank of India have no system for this directive and they are just dodging the issue under Section 8(1)

I have made a "First Appeal" in both cases and may come for hearing in this month, probably. My Judgement is I may have to send Complaint cum Second Appeal to CIC after 45 days.

 

With one more letter to RBI, I have asked information from around 9-10 banks' quarterly returns about failed ATM transactions! As all banks have to give report to RBI about "Failed ATM Transactions" as per there directive dated 17-07-2009.

 

I am trying to upload all replies by scanning the same and may take 2-3 days more if not already uploaded. Some one may get a clue which will be vital.

Letters to 5 Banks.doc

First Appeal-Second letter-737-13-03-2010.doc

First Appeal 738-13-3-10.doc

[sharadphadke 176]

Due to some typographic mistake I have typed "jsp50" this should be read as "jps50"

In first lot RBI is not mentioned only Bank of India is sited. Which should be corrected.

[jps50 1,580]

Even when board notes/papers include undisclosable information, bank should use sec 10 and severe information and supply disclosable info. For sec 8 please also refer:

 

Sec 8:

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/blogs/jps50/60-section-8-rti-act-2005-imp-decisions.html

[jj99 136]

there are many decisions on board agenda/resolution in cic site pl refer those and do FA

[sharadphadke 176]

My second batch of RTI letters based on the draft given by Shri jps50 were receipted by Bank of India on 20-03-2010 and by RBI on 22-03-2010.

So far there is no communication from them.

There is no communication from Bank of India on FAA in 2 cases.

When do I start my next leg work? Or should I wait for another 15 days?

Or should I lodge complaint with consumer IC under some section? As complaint cum appeal?

[ambrish.p 1,372]

Dear Shrad

 

Kindly guide member: http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/52426-fees-payment.html further as u have filed RTI application with BOI.

 

regards

[sharadphadke 176]

Dear Shrad

 

Kindly guide member: http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/52426-fees-payment.html further as u have filed RTI application with BOI.

regards

 

As per RTI Rs.10/- was paid for second application given as draft by jps50. No changes were made in the application. Drafts were for BOI as well as for RBI separately given by jps50 and the fee was paid as required.

 

As far as the First Appeal is concerned there was no fee paid as there is no mention of any fees.

 

All the information called later than first ATM failed applications are paid with necessary fees. Dates of receipts of documents by bank are as given by E-mail by Speed Post.

 

Looking at the other posts, in different heads, I think I should wait for another 15 days. Only thing is should I go for complaint cum appeal with consumer court as per 1985 rule. (I might have made error in year)

[sharadphadke 176]

Union Bank of India appears to be real fast on track. RTI letter reached them on 9-4-10. I got a email on 15th stating they are in process of information. To day I got a phone asking do I have any problem with their ATM system? They have complied and sent the material to legal dept. and I shall get the reply soon. But this call is to ask if our ATM system needs correction or some modification and what was the reason for asking information. The caller identified as AGM but could not get the name.

I am scanning and making pdf of two letters from RBI, which I think need to look in the matter under RTI microscope. They quote the wrong dates and the forwarding to different departments, time is more.

[sharadphadke 176]

I have yesterday received the reply of my First Appeal of my personla RTI filed to ask why the penal amount not cradited and who is responcible person with name and designation who is acting against RBI rules.

FAA has rejected the first appeal.

Most surprising part of the reply is FAA is giving some information which CPIO has not given and that is the reason for appeal.

Scaned pdf file is attached with this post for the study and comments and suggestions from friends.

Since the rejection of appeal also contains some information I am bit confused how to look at the subject.

This appeal was made on 26th March and the reply was received on 26th April just see the promptness.

Second set of quastions under RTI as per the guidence of jps50 was sent to this bank on 17-3-10 there is no reply so far, may be it has not received on the desk of CPIO in time as FAA claims and gives clause 6 in reference.

Shall quote my views in couple of day. In the mean while let us deside "Complaint cum Appeal" or only Complaint with Cansumer IC.

BankofIndia_First Appeal-Personal Case.pdf

[jj99 136]

I think the appeal is not rejected but has been heard by the merits as you must have mentioned ..

 

this line is surprising to me " Not expected to answer any query raised in the application

nor the applicant can invoke the provisions of act for redressal of his alleged grievance"

[sharadphadke 176]

I think the appeal is not rejected but has been heard by the merits as you must have mentioned ..

 

this line is surprising to me " Not expected to answer any query raised in the application

nor the applicant can invoke the provisions of act for redressal of his alleged grievance"

 

Read the last line it says the appeal is disposed off.

JJ99's question about remark are for I had asked the name and designation of the officer who is acting against rules. And what action you have taken on the person acting against rules and taking illegal steps. They want to hide the name of the person since it may be of higher rank. "The letter dt. 17-7-2009 from RBI did not circulate to concerned departments and now they want to hide this fact" and this is the main reason to show sec 8(1) as this shall spoil the name of the bank in the market.

 

Why I was not called for hearing? I had made request to this effect, if there is going to be hearing.

 

Doing the work of CPIO by FAA means there is some fantastic brain working to over cum jps50's drafting and asking permission to inspect documents with a assistance of my choice. They have cooked up this figure and shall be quoting in reply to application dt. 17-3-2010 telling it was received by the bank on so and so date. and so FAA has given this fig in this order.

 

There is still one more FAA is pending. Let us see what happens.

 

I think getting 6500/- from bank is a success story and should come in papers so that there will be more pressure.